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	<title>Forget the Channel &#187; Church</title>
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	<itunes:summary>Bible resources and more</itunes:summary>
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	<itunes:author>Forget the Channel</itunes:author>
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		<itunes:name>Forget the Channel</itunes:name>
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		<item>
		<title>Jedi masters and the body of Christ</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2011/09/02/jedi-masters-and-the-body-of-christ/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2011/09/02/jedi-masters-and-the-body-of-christ/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2011 05:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ministry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Briefing]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=1654</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From The Briefing: <p>I’m about to use Yoda as a model for Christian love. If you haven’t seen the Star Wars movies, you’ll probably be mystified by what I’m about to say. This is not the article you’re looking for.</p> <p>Our home group recently spent a few weeks discussing Christian love. We were focusing on [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<address>From <a title="Jedi masters and the body of Christ" href="http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2011/08/jedi-masters-and-the-body-of-christ/">The Briefing</a>:</address>
<p>I’m about to use Yoda as a model for Christian love. If you haven’t seen the Star Wars movies, you’ll probably be mystified by what I’m about to say. This is not the article you’re looking for.</p>
<p>Our home group recently spent a few weeks discussing Christian love. We were focusing on how to love people facing particularly difficult problems like depression or relationship crises. We were thinking about how, in these situations, we could ‘speak the truth in love’ (Eph 4:15). We talked a lot about some of the mechanics of speaking the truth in love: for example, how do you ask the kind of questions that get to the heart of the issue? When a person reveals personal information to you, how do you organize the information in your head? Most importantly, how do you bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to bear in the situation?</p>
<p>We soon discovered that there were two kinds of people in the group. Firstly, there were the ‘naturals’, people who were instinctively good at loving people facing hard times. They knew how to be kind, they knew when to listen, they knew when to comfort and when to challenge. When it came to speaking the truth in love, they were Jedis. But there were others, like me, who were less intuitive. We needed to be more deliberate and conscious. We were more like apprentices, young Luke Skywalkers.</p>
<p>To some of the Jedis, all this talk about the ‘mechanics’ of love seemed a bit wrong. They thought: “Isn’t it a bit cold and calculating? Isn’t it inauthentic, formulaic, non-relational? Surely you just have to love people genuinely, from the heart, and the rest will follow?”</p>
<p>But after a while these Jedis realized something: the apprentices were different from them. The ‘just do it’ approach didn’t work for the apprentices at all. In fact, the apprentices needed the wisdom of the Jedis. We needed them to reflect on what they were doing, to break it down into little bits and teach us.</p>
<p>In other words, we needed the Jedis to become Yodas. Yoda was more than just a Jedi. He was a Jedi master. He knew that other people didn’t share his natural intuition. He reflected long and hard about his own innate Jedi skills. He was patient and kind. He shared his Jedi powers with Luke, in simple steps, so that Luke could understand and learn.</p>
<p>The Jedis in our group were very gracious to us. They became Yodas for us—and it was incredibly helpful.</p>
<p>When it comes to speaking and serving the body of Christ, what gift comes ‘naturally’ to you? In this area, can you become a Jedi master, break it down, and teach the rest of us?</p>
<address>Comments at <a title="Jedi masters and the body of Christ" href="http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2011/08/jedi-masters-and-the-body-of-christ/">The Briefing</a></address>
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		<item>
		<title>The olive tree is not about Gentiles joining Israel (Romans 11:17-24)</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2011/02/25/the-olive-tree-is-not-about-gentiles-joining-israel-romans-1117-24/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2011/02/25/the-olive-tree-is-not-about-gentiles-joining-israel-romans-1117-24/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Biblical theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[General]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Paul]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Romans]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=1383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>A short while ago I wrote a post claiming that Paul doesn&#8217;t ever teach that the Gentiles are included in Israel. I said:</p> <p>Gentiles don’t need to be included in Israel. In fact, the opposite is true; we Gentiles are saved by faith in Christ without being included in Israel. That’s one of the apostle [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A short while ago I wrote a post claiming that Paul <a href="http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/10/22/are-the-gentiles-included-in-israel/">doesn&#8217;t ever teach that the Gentiles are included in Israel</a>. I said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Gentiles don’t need to be included in Israel. In fact, the opposite is  true; we Gentiles are saved by faith in Christ <em>without</em> being  included in Israel. That’s one of the apostle Paul’s big points in  Romans and Galatians &#8230; Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians are united, not in Israel, but  in the promises to Abraham and ultimately in Christ.</p></blockquote>
<p>The <a href="http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/10/22/are-the-gentiles-included-in-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-1055">natural counter to this claim</a> is: &#8220;What about the allegory of the olive tree in Romans 11? Doesn&#8217;t that clearly assume that the Gentiles join Israel?&#8221; This question is based on a common assumption that the olive tree in Romans 11:17-24 refers to Israel, and that the image of the Gentiles being &#8220;grafted in&#8221; to this olive tree (e.g. 11:17) must therefore refer to the Gentiles joining Israel. That is, the olive-tree analogy is commonly read <em>ecclesiologically</em>.</p>
<p>But really, this ecclesiological reading of the olive tree doesn&#8217;t work when you start to read the passage carefully. I think that it makes far more sense to read the olive tree <em>theologically</em> (with, of course, implications for both Israel and the Gentiles). That is, the all-important root of the olive tree in Romans 11:17-24 doesn&#8217;t stand for Israel, but for <strong>God&#8217;s promises of salvation</strong> (and I think especially his promises to Abraham, who is not only the father of Israel but the father of many nations, see Romans 4).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve just read an article by Nikolaus Walter which makes this point very clearly. Since the article is in German, I thought I&#8217;d translate some of the key points for English readers:</p>
<blockquote><p>When interpreting an allegory, we must always be controlled by the question: What does the author probably want to say in the given context, and what lies beyond his immediate horizon? The main problem for the interpretation of Romans 11:17-24 seems to me to be the question: Who or what is Paul speaking about when he talks about the olive tree with its root, trunk and “sap”; i.e. the olive tree along with the “fatness” which proceeds from the root, which is of course the distinguishing honour of the olive tree and makes it suitable as an allegory of salvation?<br />
[pp. 179-180]</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>In my opinion the olive tree, or the trunk, and particularly the root, &#8220;is&#8221; <em>not</em> = Israel, despite Jeremiah 11:16 ff. For &#8220;Israel&#8221; is in fact what has branched out of the olive tree, which currently&#8211;by virtue of its non-acceptance of Christ Jesus&#8211;is in its greater part excluded from the olive tree (Rom 11:25 b).<br />
[p. 180]</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>If the cultivated olive tree, its root and the fat which flows from it into the branches (or fruits!) (Rom 11:17) is to point concretely at anything, then it points above all to God&#8211;to his election and promises and the grace of salvation which flows out from him&#8211;but it should not be immediately identified with Israel as a people. Israel, which until now has been that which branches out of the olive tree, has grown on this cultivated olive tree; it has its own history of God and salvation in its past and as its foundation; however it &#8220;is&#8221; not itself this foundation; the root, the trunk, the fat.<br />
(pp. 180-181)</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>And now they [the Gentiles] are through God’s salvific action in Christ planted not <em>in Israel</em>, but rather they are included in the salvific activity of the <em>God</em> of Israel.<br />
(p. 181)</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>The often-applied sentance Rom 11:18 b does not imply that the Gentile Christians are supported by Israel as their &#8220;root&#8221;. Rather, what is actually said to the Gentile Christians is that they should not boast with respect to the now-broken-off branches, i.e. with respect to Israel; for even they, the Gentile Christians, &#8220;support&#8221; not the root, but rather are supported by it (but not by the broken-off branches); i.e. they have not become branches on the olive tree and participated in its &#8220;fat&#8221; by their own power, but rather they are &#8220;supported&#8221; by God and his gracious election enacted in Jesus Christ, just as formerly Israel was and also yet again will be.<br />
(pp. 181-182)</p></blockquote>
<p>Walter, Nikolaus. &#8220;Zur Interpretation von Römer 9-11.&#8221; <em>Zeitschrift für Theologie und Kirche </em>81 (1984): 172-195.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Are the Gentiles included in Israel?</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/10/22/are-the-gentiles-included-in-israel/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/10/22/are-the-gentiles-included-in-israel/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Biblical theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Covenant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Galatians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Paul]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Romans]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=1122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>Μὴ γένοιτο! No way! Gentiles don&#8217;t need to be included in Israel. In fact, the opposite is true; we Gentiles are saved by faith in Christ without being included in Israel. That&#8217;s one of the apostle Paul&#8217;s big points in Romans and Galatians.</p> <p>We are, of course, included in the promises given to Abraham (Rom [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Μὴ γένοιτο! No way! Gentiles don&#8217;t need to be included in Israel. In fact, the opposite is true; we Gentiles are saved by faith in Christ <em>without</em> being included in Israel. That&#8217;s one of the apostle Paul&#8217;s big points in Romans and Galatians.</p>
<p>We <em>are</em>, of course, included in the promises given to Abraham (Rom 4:11, 16; Gal 3:7). But being a child of Abraham is not the same as being a member of Israel. That&#8217;s why Paul says that Abraham is the Father of <em>many</em> nations (Rom 4:17-18), <em>not</em> that Abraham is the father of <em>one</em> nation, Israel, that has somehow been redefined or expanded to include other nations. Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians are united, not in Israel, but in the promises to Abraham and ultimately in Christ.</p>
<p>The idea that the Gentiles are included in Israel is one of the (if not <em>the</em>) fundamental exegetical mistakes of the New Perspective on Paul.</p>
<p>PS that&#8217;s probably why Paul almost always speaks of the church using familial terms, such as &#8220;children&#8221; and &#8220;sons&#8221;, rather than political terms (i.e. as a &#8220;people&#8221;, which is a political word).</p>
<p>Gadenz, Pablo T. <em>Called from the Jews and from the Gentiles: Pauline Ecclesiology in Romans 9–11</em>. Edited by Jörg Frey, WUNT II.267. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2009, esp. page 82.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>The Individual and the Community in Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/09/24/the-individual-and-the-community-in-paul/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/09/24/the-individual-and-the-community-in-paul/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Justification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Paul]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=1043</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been a concern of mine for some time that a number of New Testament scholars such as Tom Wright take an approach to justification in Paul which subordinates individual issues (such as personal sin, guilt and salvation) to communal concerns. The same is true in some scholarly approaches to Paul&#8217;s use of the word [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been a concern of mine for some time that a number of New Testament <a href="http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2006/02/01/the-new-perspective-on-paul-summary-and-reflections/">scholars such as Tom Wright</a> take an approach to justification in Paul which subordinates individual issues (such as personal sin, guilt and salvation) to communal concerns. The same is true in some scholarly approaches to Paul&#8217;s use of the word <a href="http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/01/20/what-saint-paul-rarely-said/">&#8220;covenant&#8221;</a>. But the individual and the community should not be pitted against one another or placed in an ordered hierarchy like this. They are both very important aspects of our salvation in Christ.</p>
<p>My colleague Ben Dunson has written a <a href="http://cbi.sagepub.com/content/9/1/63.abstract">great review</a> of scholarly approaches to individual / communal issues since Bultmann and Käsemann, with helpful suggestions for further avenues of research and a call for integration of the individual and the communal elements in Paul.</p>
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		<title>The Greatest Expectations</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/06/09/the-greatest-expectations/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/06/09/the-greatest-expectations/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 04:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Briefing]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the Sola Panel: <p>Once I got to church on time, but God arrived 20 minutes late. On the other hand, occasionally I&#8217;ve been to church and God didn&#8217;t manage to turn up at all. At least, that&#8217;s the impression you&#8217;d form if you judged by expectations.</p> <p>The times I remember when nobody expected God [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<address>On the <a href="http://solapanel.org/article/the_greatest_expectations/">Sola Panel</a>:<br />
</address>
<p>Once I got to church on time, but God arrived 20 minutes late. On the  other hand, occasionally I&#8217;ve been to church and God didn&#8217;t manage to  turn up at all. At least, that&#8217;s the impression you&#8217;d form if you judged  by expectations.</p>
<p><a name="more"></a>The times I remember when nobody expected God to show up at church  involved some friendly, relaxed informal gatherings. Don&#8217;t get me wrong;  I personally like friendly, relaxed informal gatherings. But every so  often, I think we may have been so keen on being friendly, relaxed and  informal that nobody seems to be expecting the creator and judge of the  universe to do anything in particular. We all had a great time of  enjoyable fellowship and good coffee, and we talked afterwards about the  latest TV shows, and then we went home.</p>
<p>At another church I visited, God did turn up quite spectacularly, but  he was 20 minutes late. Church started at 7 pm with a series of slow,  reflective songs. The band was excellent; the choir on the stage was  full of young, smiling faces; the lighting was comfortably moody.  Slowly, imperceptibly, the music started to get more intense. At 7:20  pm, it reached a crescendo, the choir started swaying back and forth,  and the lights suddenly became intensely bright. At that point, the  bloke on the stage with the microphone said, “Wow. I reckon God&#8217;s really  here now!“ I kid you not.</p>
<p>What <em>should</em> we expect of God when it comes to church? The  Bible does talk about God or Jesus being especially present when we  gather. In <a title="Matthew  18:20" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Matthew%2018.20" target="_blank">Matthew 18:20</a>, Jesus says, “For  where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them“.  Paul talks about the “power of our Lord Jesus“ being present when  Christians are “assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus“ (<a title="1 Cor 5:4" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%205.4" target="_blank">1 Cor 5:4</a>). When the  “whole church comes together“, Paul says that outsiders should recognize  that “God is really among you“ (<a title="1  Cor 14:23, 25" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%2014.23,%2025" target="_blank">1 Cor 14:23, 25</a>). We  should expect God&#8217;s presence in church.</p>
<p>But what should we expect God to actually <em>do</em> when he shows  up? Should we expect a buzz of excitement as Jesus electrifies the  crowd, rocks our world and transports us to the third heaven? Or should  we expect a feeling of awe and holiness in the presence of a  semi-tangible divine essence? Perhaps we should expect a sense of  inexplicable inner peace, which transcends our busy or humdrum existence  and helps us to feel calm and happy.</p>
<p>Well, not exactly. In fact, the Bible verses I just cited are all  about people being convicted of their sin. The “two or three“ who are  gathered in <a title="Matthew  18:20" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Matthew%2018.20" target="_blank">Matthew 18:20</a> are two or three  witnesses to the sin of a brother (<a title="Matt  18:15-16" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Matt%2018.15-16" target="_blank">Matt 18:15-16</a>). The power of  the Lord Jesus in <a title="1  Corinthians 5:4" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Corinthians%205.4" target="_blank">1 Corinthians 5:4</a> is  there to judge a sexually immoral church member (<a title="1  Cor 5:1, 5" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%205.1,%205" target="_blank">1 Cor 5:1, 5</a>). The outsider  in <a title="1 Corinthians 14:25" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Corinthians%2014.25" target="_blank">1 Corinthians  14:25</a> says, “God is really among you“ because he has been convicted  and called to account, and has had the secrets of his heart disclosed by  the church speaking God&#8217;s word (<a title="1 Cor  14:24" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%2014.24" target="_blank">1 Cor 14:24</a>).</p>
<p>What should we expect God to do among us when we gather? In a  nutshell, we should expect God to be doing his gospel work. We should  expect God to be among us, convicting us of sin (<a title="Matt  18:16, 20" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Matt%2018.16,%2020" target="_blank">Matt 18:16, 20</a>; <a title="1 Cor  5:4-5" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%205.4-5" target="_blank">1 Cor 5:4-5</a>; <a title="1 Cor  14:24" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%2014.24" target="_blank">1 Cor 14:24</a>). We should expect  Jesus to be among us, rescuing sinners from God&#8217;s judgment (<a title="Matt 18:15" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Matt%2018.15" target="_blank">Matt 18:15</a>; <a title="1 Cor 5:5" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%205.5" target="_blank">1 Cor 5:5</a>). Or,  looking further afield in the Bible, we should expect Jesus to be among  us to enable us to do his will and keep his commandments (<a title="Heb 13:20-21" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Heb%2013.20-21" target="_blank">Heb 13:20-21</a>; <a title="John  14:20-21" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/John%2014.20-21" target="_blank">John 14:20-21</a>)—especially the  command to love one another (<a title="John  15:11-12" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/John%2015.11-12" target="_blank">John 15:11-12</a>). We should  expect Christ to create the hope of glory in us (<a title="Col 1:27" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Col%201.27" target="_blank">Col 1:27</a>). Fundamentally, we should be  expecting God, our creator, Lord and saviour, to speak to us in church  by his creative and powerful and saving word (<a title="John  17:20-23" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/John%2017.20-23" target="_blank">John 17:20-23</a>; <a title="1 Cor  14:24" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%2014.24" target="_blank">1 Cor 14:24</a>; <a title="Col 1:5-6" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Col%201.5-6" target="_blank">Col 1:5-6</a>).</p>
<p>This can happen in all sorts of contexts, can&#8217;t it. It&#8217;s not  ultimately a matter of the formality or informality of the gathering,  the leadership (or non-leadership) style, the number of people, the  band, the songs or the lighting. What does matter is that God&#8217;s word is  spoken, heard and taken to heart. When that happens, we should expect  great things. That&#8217;s because church is always intimately connected to  that great heavenly gathering where God, the judge of all, is present  and where Jesus&#8217; sacrifice for our sins speaks to us a serious,  comforting and awesome message (<a title="Heb  12:22-24" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Heb%2012.22-24" target="_blank">Heb 12:22-24</a>).</p>
<p>What are you expecting from God when you come to church?</p>
<address>Comments on the <a href="http://solapanel.org/article/the_greatest_expectations/#comments">Sola Panel</a><br />
</address>
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		<title>The Gospel and Ageing</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/02/03/the-gospel-and-ageing/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2010/02/03/the-gospel-and-ageing/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ethics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Briefing]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=800</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From the Sola Panel <p>What is the most polite way to refer to an old person? Have you noticed how the words we collectively use to refer to old people in the media and in private conversation keep changing? It&#8217;s a strange process. We start using a word or phrase, for example, ‘old man’, ‘old [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<address>From the <a href="http://solapanel.org/article/the_gospel_and_ageing/">Sola Panel</a></address>
<p>What is the most polite way to refer to an old person? Have you noticed how the words we collectively use to refer to old people in the media and in private conversation keep changing? It&#8217;s a strange process. We start using a word or phrase, for example, ‘old man’, ‘old woman’. After a while, we decide that this phrase is really a little derogatory, and so we change to another, more neutral phrase, such as ‘senior citizen’. But after a while, ‘senior citizen’ sounds condescending and slightly offensive. So we try another, more neutral, word—like ‘elderly’. But the same thing happens: after we use the word ‘elderly’ for a while, it starts to sound a bit insulting. So we try ‘aged’. Then ‘ageing’. And so on. The reason this keeps happening is that our underlying concept of ageing itself is negative. It doesn&#8217;t matter what word we choose to express it; that word will start to take on the negative connotations that we associate with the underlying concept.</p>
<p>Ageing, for us, is a terrible thing. Nobody wants to be old. We have created an entire cosmetic industry dedicated to covering up the disastrous effects of ageing. We don&#8217;t want to be look old because we don&#8217;t want to <em>be</em> old. Why are we so negative about ageing? It&#8217;s because ageing represents the opposite of our core values. We live in a society that puts a huge value on freedom, choice, fulfilment of desires, strength and independence. All these values are far more obtainable by the young than by the old. Increasing age means diminishing freedom, limited choice, lower potential for fulfilment, increasing weakness and growing dependence.</p>
<p>Furthermore, we believe that old people actually limit the potential of the young people around them. Old people are a ‘burden’, a challenge, an increasing demand on an economy that is ‘driven’ by the young. Or at least, this is the way we often talk about ageing.</p>
<p>What light does the gospel of Jesus Christ shed on ageing? The doctrine of creation remind us that God has created a good and ordered world for humans to rule under his loving oversight. Old people, by virtue of their greater experience in this world, have invaluable wisdom to offer the young. Young people <em>need</em> the presence, experience and wisdom of godly old people in our communities, in our homes (e.g. <a title="Prov 23:22" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Prov%2023.22" target="_blank">Prov 23:22</a>) and in our churches (e.g. <a title="Titus 1:5, 2:3" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Titus%201.5,%202.3" target="_blank">Titus 1:5, 2:3</a>). Old people are not a burden. In fact, we can&#8217;t do without them.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, ageing is a reminder that our world is under a curse. The increasing weakness, futility and numbness of old age (<a title="Eccl 12:1-6" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Eccl%2012.1-6" target="_blank">Eccl 12:1-6</a>) is merely the forerunner to death (<a title="Eccl 12:7" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Eccl%2012.7" target="_blank">Eccl 12:7</a>), which all stems from God&#8217;s judgement for our rebellion against him (<a title="Gen 3:19" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Gen%203.19" target="_blank">Gen 3:19</a>). The debilitating effects of ageing remind us that there is something terribly wrong with our world and our relationship with God, and that should make us turn to him for salvation.</p>
<p>The fact that Jesus came as a servant to die as a ransom for our sins and to help those who cannot help themselves (<a title="Mark 10:45" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Mark%2010.45" target="_blank">Mark 10:45 </a>, <a title="Romans 5:6" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Romans%205.6" target="_blank">Romans 5:6</a>) teaches us that God cares for the weak, the feeble, the vulnerable. Following the crucified saviour means caring for those who need our care (<a title="Mark 10:43-44" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Mark%2010.43-44" target="_blank">Mark 10:43-44</a>, <a title="Phil 2:4-11" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Phil%202.4-11" target="_blank">Phil 2:4-11</a>), including the aged among us (<a title="1 Tim 5:8" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Tim%205.8" target="_blank">1 Tim 5:8</a>). We all need to acknowledge the great value of aged care, and support those individuals and professionals who care for old people.</p>
<p>The resurrection of Jesus Christ shows us that mortality, frailty and death are not God&#8217;s final plan for humanity. Jesus&#8217; body didn&#8217;t see decay (<a title="Acts 13:37" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Acts%2013.37" target="_blank">Acts 13:37</a>); likewise, all those who trust in him look forward to receiving renewed, immortal bodies from God (<a title="1 Cor 15:42-44" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%2015.42-44" target="_blank">1 Cor 15:42-44</a>). In Christ, old people, as much as young people, are created in the image of an imperishable, immortal saviour (<a title="1 Cor 15:49" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20Cor%2015.49" target="_blank">1 Cor 15:49</a>) and share equally in that massive potential for freedom, glory and fulfilment in the new creation.</p>
<p>But the gospel demands faith and repentance. Do we trust in God&#8217;s promises enough to also entrust him with our fears and anxieties about our own ageing? Do we need to change our attitudes and our actions so that we properly value and love the old people in our midst?</p>
<address>Comments on <a href="http://solapanel.org/article/the_gospel_and_ageing/#comments">the Sola Panel</a><br />
</address>
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		<title>Replacing the Spirit with the sacraments</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2009/11/25/replacing-the-spirit-with-the-sacraments/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2009/11/25/replacing-the-spirit-with-the-sacraments/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Creation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Eschatology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been listening recently to an online lecture series called Space, Time, [Matter] and Sacraments. The speaker (an influential Church of England Bishop called N. T. Wright) posed some very important questions. For example:</p> How is the story of Jesus&#8217; life, death and resurrection made &#8220;real&#8221; to us in our own lives now? How is [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been listening recently to an online lecture series called <a title="N. T. Wright. Space, Time and Sacraments" href="http://www.calvin.edu/worship/idis/theology/ntwright_sacraments.php">Space, Time, [Matter] and Sacraments</a>. The speaker (an influential Church of England Bishop called N. T. Wright) posed some very important questions. For example:</p>
<ul>
<li>How is the story of Jesus&#8217; life, death and resurrection made &#8220;real&#8221; to us in our own lives now?</li>
<li>How is the promise of new creation, which we know will be truly physical and not just a fluffy boring harp-playing cloud-sitting eternity, made &#8220;real&#8221; to us now who still live embodied lives in the midst of the old creation?</li>
</ul>
<p>His answer to these questions involved more than 3 hours of lectures and question times, but it can be summarised in two words: &#8220;the sacraments&#8221;, by which he meant primarily the physical activities of the “Eucharist” and water Baptism but also other traditionally &#8220;Catholic&#8221; sacraments such as marriage, confession, confirmation, etc.</p>
<p>Wright&#8217;s basic argument was that because the new creation in Christ is real, material and physical, it is appropriated in real, material and physical ways, through physical sacrament as well as through spoken word.</p>
<p>On the positive side, Wright said many interesting and helpful things about physicality and Christian community. As usual he offers correctives to modern over-individualistic &#8220;disembodied&#8221; misunderstandings of the gospel. And he was at pains to keep God&#8217;s word and the sacraments together; he certainly didn&#8217;t believe in a &#8220;magical&#8221; operation of the sacraments where they just &#8220;work&#8221; regardless of whether God&#8217;s Word is being preached.</p>
<p>Nevertheless after a while, something struck me. During the entire three hours, he <strong>never spoke about the Holy Spirit&#8217;s vital place in the answer to these (above) questions</strong>. From memory, all I can remember about what Wright said about the Holy Spirit was:</p>
<ul>
<li>A passing mention when referring to Romans 8 (but he didn&#8217;t really make anything of it)</li>
<li>Another passing acknowledgement when quoting a poem that mentioned the Holy Ghost</li>
<li>An acknowledgement that Calvin talked about a &#8220;spiritual&#8221; eating and drinking in the Lord&#8217;s Supper, after which he immediately said that while he basically agreed with Calvin, nevertheless he wanted to emphasise the physical, material aspect of the sacraments (implying that he believed that Calvin was right when it came to a &#8220;real presence&#8221; and not quite right when he emphasised the spiritual rather than the physical).</li>
</ul>
<p>Wright also made quite a few negative comments about the &#8220;spiritual&#8221; nature of much modern reflection about the Christian life and church, which he frequently connected with un-Christian individualism and gnosticism. In the vast majority of cases, &#8220;spirit&#8221; and &#8220;spiritual&#8221; were neutral or negative concepts for him.</p>
<p>Before I criticise Wright, I need to concede a few things. Yes, he was asked to speak on the sacraments, not the Spirit, so of course he should be focussing on them. Yes, I know that Wright would never deny that he believes in the Spirit (he frequently mentions the Spirit in his writings on Jesus and Paul). And yes, even at the beginning of his lecture series, Wright acknowledged that he was being exploratory in his own reflections about the sacraments, and that most of his beliefs about the sacraments in his life so far had come through his church experience, so this isn&#8217;t his &#8220;final word&#8221;.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, despite all these caveats, I still think there is something deeply wrong here. Wright deliberately went out of his way to frame his discussion in terms of these questions (above) about the way in which the story of Jesus and the new creation is made &#8220;real&#8221; in our lives. The answer of the Bible to these questions (e.g. Romans 8), which is also the answer of John Calvin, is that these things happen primarily by the Holy Spirit. This is not to deny that the new creation is physical, nor to deny that there should and will be physical manifestations of the new creation in our lives and communities, nor to deny that sacraments are or should be involved. But to spend more than three hours answering the question in relation to the sacraments, <em>without</em> any real discussion of the Spirit, is a very grave error. I content that Wright, at this point, has substituted the sacraments of the church for the Holy Spirit of God.</p>
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		<title>What is this thing we call the local church?</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2009/11/17/the-local-church/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2009/11/17/the-local-church/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lionel Windsor (2005) <p>I’m thinking of asking a dangerous question. It’s a question that I need to ask, but the very act of asking it threatens to lead me astray. The question is this: ‘What is St. Blogg’s?’ This may seem like a strange question, but let me explain why I need to ask it, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<address style="text-align: right;">Lionel Windsor (2005)</address>
<p>I’m thinking of asking a dangerous question. It’s a question that I need to ask, but the very act of asking it threatens to lead me astray. The question is this: ‘<em>What is St. Blogg’s?</em>’ This may seem like a strange question, but let me explain why I need to ask it, and why it’s so dangerous.</p>
<p>St. Blogg’s is a group I belong to.<a name="_ftnref1" href="#_ftn1">[1]</a> It has about 200 members of various ages, most of whom attend (with varying regularity) one or both of its two so-called ‘Sunday services’ where we engage in singing, prayer, Bible instruction, symbolic meals, and other assorted activities, followed by tea and biscuits. As a group, we tend to like spending time together both during and outside the ‘services’. We share biblical truth with outsiders. Many of us attend mid-week groups for Bible study, prayer and training. St. Blogg’s owns some buildings, and many (but not all) of its members dwell close to these buildings. The membership has a high turnover, reflecting the high mobility of the locality. There are so-called ‘ministers’ who lead many of our activities. St. Blogg’s belongs to the Reconstituted Calathumpian denomination. According to our vision statement, we have a rich heritage and a promising future. According to some others, we have a chequered past and an uncertain outlook.</p>
<p>I’ve just described St. Blogg’s in a few different ways.<a name="_ftnref2" href="#_ftn2">[2]</a> But this doesn’t actually answer the question: What <em>is</em> St. Blogg’s? St. Blogg’s isn’t <em>necessarily</em> something that God cares about very much, and this is what makes the question dangerous. By the very act of asking it, I might focus so much on St. Blogg’s that I neglect God’s concerns. Nevertheless, I need to know what St. Blogg’s <em>is</em>—because if I don’t know what it is, I won’t know how to behave towards it. I might unduly despise it, or unduly adore it, or stay in it when I should leave, or leave it when I should stay, or unwittingly destroy it, or prolong it when it should be disbanded.</p>
<h3>The Assembly</h3>
<p>Now you might think that the answer is obvious: St. Blogg’s is clearly a <em>church</em>. You just look up the word ‘church’ in your Bible concordance, read the appropriate verses, and there you have it. But it’s not so easy, because the Greek word usually translated ‘church’ in our Bibles (<em>ekklēsia</em>) actually means ‘assembly’. So when you read the word ‘church’ in your Bible, the immediate picture you form in your mind should not be something like St. Blogg’s (the thing that I’ve just described) but rather an actual ‘assembly’ of people in direct proximity to one another, in one place, engaged in a common activity (more like what we at St. Blogg’s call a ‘service’ or a Bible study). The word ‘church’ in the Bible<a name="_ftnref3" href="#_ftn3">[3]</a> always carries with it notions of particular people actually assembled in a particular place, for a particular reason.<a name="_ftnref4" href="#_ftn4">[4]</a></p>
<p>In the Old Testament, the most significant assemblies were assemblies of the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai or Mount Zion for the purpose of hearing and responding to God’s word (e.g. Deut 4:10, 18:16; 1 Kings 8, Neh 8:2). Israel was not an assembly all the time; it was only described as an assembly when it actually assembled. At other times it was described as a ‘people’. Nevertheless, these assemblies were very significant, for they were the foundational and ongoing events that gave the ‘people’ its meaning and identity as <em>God’s</em> people, in God’s place, under God’s rule (e.g. Deu 23:3, Psa 68:26).</p>
<p>In the New Testament, we find that the assembly is still very significant, but it has moved to a different location. The assembly is not at Mount Sinai, but rather it is at ‘Christ’. This may sound strange until you realise that God is where Christ is (John 14:7-11). Jesus Christ is God’s presence and his rule (John 17). And so we see God’s purposes being fulfilled as he gathers people around Christ, in obedience and response to Christ. The Christian ‘assembly’ is the assembly around Christ. But where is Christ now? He has ascended to heaven (Acts 2:33). He is with God, ruling from heaven, gathering a people to himself. One day he will return from heaven to bring consummation to the creation, but for now he is in heaven (Acts 1:11). So the primary, most important, assembly is ‘in heaven’, where we are actually assembled <em>with Christ</em> even though we are on earth (e.g. Col 1:18, 3:1-4; Eph 3:10-12; Heb 12:22-24).<a name="_ftnref5" href="#_ftn5">[5]</a></p>
<p>Yet here on earth, Christ is present <em>with us</em> by his Spirit. As the Holy Spirit brings God’s word to us and works obedience in us, Christ is there in us (Romans 8:1-11). Hence, whenever and wherever Christians assemble on earth in Christ’s name, drawn together in fellowship by the Holy Spirit to hear God’s word and respond in faith and love, which all centres on Christ, then that assembly can also be described as the true Christian assembly (e.g. Col 4:15). Thus each ‘local assembly’ is truly the heavenly assembly on earth: e.g. the ‘assembly of God which is at Corinth’ (1 Cor 1:2), ‘assemblies of Galatia’ (Gal 1:2), etc.<a name="_ftnref6" href="#_ftn6">[6]</a></p>
<p>But where does that leave St. Blogg’s? It does <em>have</em> regular assemblies in Christ’s name. But those assemblies usually stop at about 11:30 on Sunday mornings when the biscuits run out and we all go home. St. Blogg’s itself is not an ‘assembly’ as such; it’s a ‘community’ with relationships that can persist outside the assemblies. Because of this sort of distinction, some have suggested that the idea of ‘assembly’ is far too inadequate to capture the range of biblical expressions for Christian community. Cole, for example, suggests that the ‘people of God’ is a much more inclusive organising principle in the New Testament. In this view, St Blogg’s would be a subunit of the larger earthly society. It would not gain its meaning from its ‘assemblies’, but from its status as part of the ‘people of God’. This would also provide Christians with a corporate face towards the rest of the world, explaining such things as denominations, evangelism and social action.<a name="_ftnref7" href="#_ftn7">[7]</a></p>
<p>However, this view doesn’t do justice to the weight that the Bible places on the ‘assembly’ (<em>ekklēsia</em>). In the Old Testament, it is the act of assembling around God’s word that <em>makes</em> Israel God’s people, from exodus to exile.<a name="_ftnref8" href="#_ftn8">[8]</a> And as we have already seen, the New Testament uses the word ‘assembly’ (<em>ekklēsia</em>) in a highly exalted way. Paul describes the heavenly assembly around the ascended Christ as a key to the fulfilment of God’s cosmic plan (Eph 1:22, 3:10, 3:21; Col 1:18), and often uses <em>ekklēsia</em> as the primary term of corporate address to his readers (1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1; 2 Thess 1:1; Phm 1:2; cf. Rev 1:4). Whatever we say about St. Blogg’s, we can’t ignore the centrality of the ‘assembly’.</p>
<h3>The Body</h3>
<p>A key to understanding how the assembly is essential to our corporate Christian identity is the word ‘body’. The heavenly assembly is not simply an assembly <em>around</em> Christ; it is his very body (e.g. Eph 1:22-23, 5:23, 5:29-30; 1:18, 3:15). This means that there is a close, intimate relationship between Christ and his people, a ‘fellowship’ which is ours through the Holy Spirit who brings us the word of Christ and anchors us together in him (1 Cor 1:9; 10:16; 2 Cor 13:14; Eph 4:4; Phil 2:1; 1 John 1:3-7). Furthermore, this ‘fellowship’ is bound up with Christ’s bodily (human) nature, especially his death for us (1 Cor 11:24; Col 1:22, 1:24; 1 Pet 2:24) and his resurrection which secures our own resurrection (Phil 3:21; Heb 10:5, 10).<a name="_ftnref9" href="#_ftn9">[9]</a></p>
<p>This means that <em>all</em> legitimate earthly manifestations of fellowship in Christ (that is, sharing corporately in faith, hope and love in the gospel of Jesus’ death and resurrection, e.g. Col 1:3-5) are grounded in the heavenly assembly which is Christ’s ‘body’. The earthly ‘assembly’, where we gather to hear the word of Christ and to love and serve one another in close physical (bodily) proximity, is, of course, the primary expression of this fellowship (e.g. 1 Cor 10:17, 12:27-28; Col 3:16; possibly Rom 12:5-8).<a name="_ftnref10" href="#_ftn10">[10]</a> But heavenly fellowship in Christ can also be expressed in other ‘earthly’ ways even when the ‘assembly’ is not actually gathered (e.g. by sharing money: Rom 15:26; 2 Cor 8:4; Phil 4:14-15). Hence the people of St. Blogg’s can act as the body of Christ, both during its ‘assemblies’ and at other times, whenever they express fellowship in teaching and living out the gospel of Christ.</p>
<h3>The Household</h3>
<p>But is there more we can say about St. Blogg’s? The three occurrences of <em>ekklēsia</em> in 1 Timothy (3:5, 3:15, 5:16) are worth looking at more closely.<a name="_ftnref11" href="#_ftn11">[11]</a> 1 Timothy 3:15 is particularly significant, because it relates the ‘<em>ekklēsia</em> of the living God’ (a very exalted phrase) to the earthly concept of the ‘household of God’. We’ll look first at 1 Timothy more broadly, and then return to 3:15.</p>
<p>In 1 Timothy, Paul displays a deep concern with the connection between God’s word and earthly relationships. God’s word both affirms and revitalises earthly relationships. For example, the teaching about the oneness of God, the incarnation and the substitutionary atonement underwrites a concern with the entire social order (2:1-6, 4:10). While demonic teaching denies the goodness of marriage and food, God’s word and prayer is able to sanctify them (4:1-5). Timothy’s training in the words of the faith and the good teaching holds promise for both the present life and the life to come (4:6-8). Paul expects his apostolic command to set up a just system of social welfare for widows (5:3-16).<a name="_ftnref12" href="#_ftn12">[12]</a></p>
<p>Conversely, revitalised earthly relationships provide the form for God’s word to be expressed. That is, God’s word brings salvation in and through earthly relationships (e.g. 2:1-4, 2:15). Paul refers to various dimensions of relationship in and through which God’s word is taught and obeyed: men and women (2:8-15), fathers and children (3:4-5, 12), insiders and the wider community (3:7), created things such as wine and money (3:3), youth and age (5:1-2), etc.<a name="_ftnref13" href="#_ftn13">[13]</a></p>
<p>A word group commonly used by Paul to refer to a complex of earthly relationships is <em>oiko</em>-, ‘house-’. The ‘household’ in the ancient world was the basic unit of society. It was a group of people who lived together and were related to each other by kinship and economic ties (though the actual structure of households was quite varied).<a name="_ftnref14" href="#_ftn14">[14]</a> At the start of 1 Timothy, we read that the purpose of God’s word is to promote the ‘stewardship (<em>oikonomia</em>) of God’ (1:4). Children, grandchildren and widows, for example, have significant roles to play in the household (<em>oikos</em>, 5:4, 8, 14). Significantly, the Christian ‘overseer’ must</p>
<blockquote><p>manage his own household (<em>oikos</em>) well, with all   dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to   manage his own household, how will he care for God&#8217;s assembly (<em>ekklēsia</em>)?   (1 Tim 3:4-5, modified ESV. Cf. 3:12)</p></blockquote>
<p>It is in this context that Paul writes 1 Timothy 3:15. Here is a literal translation aiming to bring out the precise connections between the words:</p>
<blockquote><p>[. . .] that you may know how it is necessary, in a   household (<em>oikos</em>) of God, to behave, which is the assembly (<em>ekklēsia</em>)   of the living God, the pillar and buttress of truth. (1 Tim 3:15)</p></blockquote>
<p>The word ‘behave’ means consistent habits of earthly living in relationship with others.<a name="_ftnref15" href="#_ftn15">[15]</a> This is entirely consonant with the tone of 1 Timothy. Similarly, as we have seen, the word ‘household’ is best understood as a social entity with some measure of continuity, an earthly ‘community’.<a name="_ftnref16" href="#_ftn16">[16]</a> The ‘household of God’ is not necessarily a ‘house-church’ (cf. 1 Tim 5:4, 8, 14 with 5:16). Nevertheless, it does appear to be a close-knit earthly community.<a name="_ftnref17" href="#_ftn17">[17]</a></p>
<p>Paul seems to envisage that wherever Christians are living in close proximity, such that they are regularly and prayerfully interacting with each other, and the word of God is being taught, believed and obeyed, their <em>ongoing</em> conduct towards one another may be said to constitute ‘assembly’, or ‘church’ (<em>ekklēsia</em>). More broadly, to whatever extent that such regular word-and-prayer-based fellowship is happening amongst a discernible social group, that social group may be said to be ‘assembling’ in the name of Christ; and that social group may be called a ‘household of God’. This ‘household of God’ is certainly not the only possible form of earthly assembly.<a name="_ftnref18" href="#_ftn18">[18]</a> However, the household of God is a particularly powerful form of assembly because it is a locus of direct word-and-spirit-based interaction between God and human relationships.</p>
<h3>What is St. Blogg’s?</h3>
<p>To answer our question, then, what is St. Blogg’s? Provided it sticks to God’s word in its teaching, its fellowship, and its ongoing life, it is a household of God. It is an earthly community, but it is a special earthly community because it is a place where God’s word directly affects earthly relationships. How, then, should I act towards it?</p>
<p>Firstly, I need to discern the earthly character of the ‘household of God’. God’s creation exhibits both regularity (which is good, e.g. Gen 1:18) and variety (which is good, e.g. Gen 1:12, 21, 25). This will also be true of St. Blogg’s. We should expect God’s word to revitalise and reform relationships between parents and children, men and women, younger and older, in line with the good regularity of the created order; and we should expect these properly ordered relationships to inform the way in which we bring God’s word to each other in fellowship (e.g. 1 Tim 2:8-15; 5:1-4). Yet we should also expect variety and fluidity in how these relationships are expressed, as they both reform and are informed by the culture in which the household of God finds itself.<a name="_ftnref19" href="#_ftn19">[19]</a></p>
<p>But more importantly, I must be concerned to ensure that St. Blogg’s remains intimately connected with its source of life: God’s word. If St. Blogg’s loses constant contact with hearing and responding to God’s word (even if it remains a nice friendly community doing lots of helpful things in society), it will no longer be a household of God, because it is no longer in fellowship with Christ; it is no longer Christ’s body (Col 2:19). I must avoid being led astray by my own question, because what ultimately matters is not St. Blogg’s, but the heavenly assembly in Christ (Col 3:1-4).</p>
<div>
<hr />
<h3>Bibliography of Sources Cited</h3>
<p>Banks, Robert. <em>Paul&#8217;s Idea of Community</em>. Revised ed. Peabody:   Hendrickson, 1994.</p>
<p>Banks, Robert and Julia Banks. <em>The Church Comes Home</em>. Peabody:   Hendrickson, 1998.</p>
<p>Cole, Graham. ‘The Doctrine of the Church: Towards Conceptual   Clarification’. Pages 3-17 in <em>Church, Worship and the Local Congregation</em>.   Edited by Barry G. Webb. Explorations 2. Sydney: Lancer, 1987.</p>
<p>Doyle, Robert. ‘A Response to Graham Cole’s Paper’. Pages 19-25 in <em>Church,   Worship and the Local Congregation</em>. Edited by Barry G. Webb. Explorations   2. Sydney: Lancer, 1987.</p>
<p>Dumbrell, William J. ‘The Meaning and Use of EKKLESIA in the New   Testament with Special Reference to Its Old Testament Background’. M.Th.   thesis. Moore Theological College, 1966.</p>
<p>Giles, Kevin. ‘Models of the Church’. <em>Evangelical Review of Theology</em> 25/1 (2001): 81-85.</p>
<p>_______. <em>What on Earth Is the Church?: a Biblical and Theological   Enquiry</em>. North Blackburn, VIC: Dove, 1995.</p>
<p>Kidd, Reggie M. <em>Wealth and Beneficence in the Pastoral Epistles</em>. SBL   Dissertation Series 122. Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1990.</p>
<p>Knight, George W. <em>The Pastoral Epistles</em>. The New International Greek   Testament Commentary. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992.</p>
<p>Knox, D. Broughton. ‘The Biblical Concept of Fellowship’. Pages 57-84   in <em>Selected Works Volume II: Church and Ministry</em>. Edited by Kirsten   Birkett. Presented at the 1986 Moore College School of Theology. Kingsford:   Matthias Media, 2003.</p>
<p>_______. ‘The Church and the Denominations’. <em>Reformed Theological   Review</em> 23/2 (1964): 44-53.</p>
<p>_______. ‘The Church, the Churches and the Denominations of the Churches’.   <em>Reformed Theological Review</em> 48/1 (1989): 15-25.</p>
<p>_______. ‘What the Church Is’. <em>The Briefing</em> 15 (1988): 3-4.</p>
<p>Mounce, William D. <em>Pastoral Epistles</em>. Word Biblical Commentary vol.   46. Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2000.</p>
<p>O’Brien, Peter T. ‘The Church as a Heavenly and Eschatological Entity’.   Pages 88-119 in <em>The Church in the Bible and the World</em>. Edited by D. A.   Carson. Exeter: Paternoster, 1987.</p>
<p>Peterson, David. ‘The “Locus” of the Church: Heaven or Earth?’. <em>Churchman</em> 112 (1998): 199-213.</p>
<p>Robinson, Donald W. B. <em>The </em><em>Church</em><em> of </em><em>God</em><em>:   Its Form and Its Unity</em>. Viewpoint Series. Punchbowl, NSW: Jordan Books,   1965.</p>
<p>Schweizer, Eduard. <em>The Church as the Body of Christ</em>. London: SPCK,   1965.</p>
<p>Shiner, Rory. ‘An Appreciation of D. W. B. Robinson’s New Testament   Theology’. B.D. thesis. Moore Theological College, 2004.</p>
<p>Vallet, Ronald E. <em>Congregations at the Crossroads: Remembering to be   Households of God</em>. Faith’s Horizons. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998.</p>
<p>Verner, David C. <em>The Household of God: the Social World of the Pastoral   Epistles</em>. SBL Dissertation Series 71. Chico, Calif: Scholars Press, 1983.</p>
<h3>Other Works Consulted</h3>
<p>Robinson, Donald W. B. ‘“The Church” Revisited: An Autobiographical   Fragment’. <em>Reformed Theological Review</em> 48/1 (1989): 4-14.</p>
<p>_______. ‘The Doctrine of the Church and Its Implications for Evangelism’.   <em>Interchange</em> 15 (1974): 156-62.</p>
<p>_______. <em>Faith&#8217;s Framework: the Structure of New Testament Theology</em>.   2nd ed. Coromandel East, SA: New Creation, 1996.</p>
<p>_______. ‘Letter to the Editor: The Church and Evangelism’. <em>Interchange</em> 21 (1977): 62-63.</p>
<p>Woodhouse, John. ‘Christian Unity and Denominations’. <em>The Briefing</em> 284 (2002): 15-20.</div>
<div>
<hr /><a name="_ftn1" href="#_ftnref1">[1]</a> Names and details have, of course,   been changed.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn2" href="#_ftnref2">[2]</a> Following the recommendation of   Kevin Giles, ‘Models of the Church’, <em>Evangelical Review of Theology</em> 25/1 (2001): 81-85.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn3" href="#_ftnref3">[3]</a> From now on I will use the word   ‘assembly’</p>
<p><a name="_ftn4" href="#_ftnref4">[4]</a> Donald W. B. Robinson, <em>The </em><em>Church</em><em> of </em><em>God</em><em>: Its Form and Its Unity</em> (Viewpoint Series; Punchbowl,   NSW: Jordan Books, 1965); D. Broughton Knox, ‘The Church and the   Denominations’, <em>Reformed Theological Review</em> 23/2 (1964): 44-53; D.   Broughton Knox, ‘The Church, the Churches and the Denominations of the   Churches’, <em>Reformed Theological Review</em> 48/1 (1989): 15-25.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn5" href="#_ftnref5">[5]</a> Peter T. O’Brien, ‘The Church   as a Heavenly and Eschatological Entity’, in <em>The Church in the Bible and   the World</em> (ed. D. A. Carson; Exeter: Paternoster, 1987), 88-119; David   Peterson, ‘The “Locus” of the Church: Heaven or Earth?’, <em>Churchman</em> 112 (1998): 199-213.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn6" href="#_ftnref6">[6]</a> D. Broughton Knox, ‘What the   Church Is’, <em>The Briefing</em> 15 (1988): 3-4.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn7" href="#_ftnref7">[7]</a> Graham Cole, ‘The Doctrine of   the Church: Towards Conceptual Clarification’, in <em>Church, Worship and the   Local Congregation</em> (ed. Barry G. Webb; Explorations 2; Sydney: Lancer,   1987), 3-17. Kevin Giles, <em>What on Earth Is the Church?: a Biblical and   Theological Enquiry</em> (North Blackburn, VIC: Dove, 1995), while aware of the   problems of ‘people of God’ language (11-12), defines the ‘church’ as   ‘worldwide Christian community’, which amounts to the same thing but with   less direct exegetical support (15-20). For Giles, St. Blogg’s would be a   ‘specific community’ generated by the ‘Christian community’ (186).</p>
<p><a name="_ftn8" href="#_ftnref8">[8]</a> Robert Doyle, ‘A Response to   Graham Cole’s Paper’, in <em>Church, Worship and the Local Congregation</em> (ed. Barry G. Webb; Explorations 2; Sydney: Lancer, 1987), 20-23.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn9" href="#_ftnref9">[9]</a> This is not to say that the   earthly church is somehow a ‘prolongation’ of Christ’s physical body on   earth, as in some Roman Catholic teaching. In an earthly sense, the ‘body’   remains a metaphor. See Eduard Schweizer, <em>The Church as the Body of Christ</em> (London: SPCK, 1965), 54-55.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn10" href="#_ftnref10">[10]</a> D. Broughton Knox, ‘The   Biblical Concept of Fellowship’, in <em>Selected Works Volume II: Church and   Ministry</em> (ed. Kirsten Birkett; Presented at the 1986 Moore College School   of Theology; Kingsford: Matthias Media, 2003), 57-84.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn11" href="#_ftnref11">[11]</a> Donald Robinson, it appears,   never wrote anything directly on the pastorals, published or unpublished (Rory   Shiner, ‘An Appreciation of D. W. B. Robinson’s New Testament Theology’   [B.D. thesis, Moore Theological College, 2004], 21-22, esp. fn 97). William   Dumbrell does discuss 1 Timothy 3:15 briefly, assuming that it is a reference   to the ‘house church’ (i.e. regular acts of assembling in a house), but he   is more interested in the phrase ‘pillar and ground of truth’: ‘The   truth is safeguarded by constant Christian assembly, where the faith is   rehearsed and the body consequently built up.’ (William J. Dumbrell, ‘The   Meaning and Use of EKKLESIA in the New Testament with Special Reference to Its   Old Testament Background’ [M.Th. thesis, Moore Theological College, 1966],   170). We might expect Robert Banks, who endorses the ‘house church movement’   (Robert Banks and Julia Banks, <em>The Church Comes Home</em> [Peabody:   Hendrickson, 1998]), to provide a detailed discussion of 1 Timothy in his book   <em>Paul’s Idea of Community</em> (Revised ed.; Peabody: Hendrickson, 1994),   194-200. However, Banks sees the pastoral epistles (whose Pauline authoriship   is doubted) as ‘drifting away’ from Paul himself in various ways. Their   understanding of community is less ‘dynamic’ and ‘participatory’,   order begins to overtake charisma, there is less ‘Spirit’, more   restrictions on women, more ‘morality’. For Banks, the ‘shadow’ of a   set leadership structure looms over the community. The ‘word’ is too   restrictive: ‘alongside the gospel an increased importance is given to “sound   doctrine” and the “sacred writings”’. Banks’ assessment of the   pastorals is not completely negative, but it is certainly not a ringing   endorsement and it leads Banks to neglect the pastorals in his theology.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn12" href="#_ftnref12">[12]</a> See also chapter 6: The ‘sound   words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching’ (6:3) enables godliness to   prevail in earthly relationships (6:1-19); whereas the opposite teaching is   ‘unhealthy’ (6:4).</p>
<p><a name="_ftn13" href="#_ftnref13">[13]</a> According to David C. Verner, <em>The   Household of God: the Social World of the Pastoral Epistles</em> (SBL   Dissertation Series 71; Chico, Calif: Scholars Press, 1983), the purpose of   the pastorals was to conform the church to traditional aristocratic society in   the face of social change, particularly to keep the traditional oppression of   women in force. However, Reggie M. Kidd, <em>Wealth and Beneficence in the   Pastoral Epistles</em> (SBL Dissertation Series 122; Atlanta: Scholars Press,   1990), 93-100 has shown that the word of God in the Pastorals was a   transformative and reforming influence on the social order. For example, true   wealth is redefined in 1 Timothy 6:3-21; this must have had major social   implications for the whole household, especially women and slaves.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn14" href="#_ftnref14">[14]</a> Verner, <em>Household of God</em>,   27-81.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn15" href="#_ftnref15">[15]</a> In both English and Greek</p>
<p><a name="_ftn16" href="#_ftnref16">[16]</a> Verner, <em>Household of God</em>,   108-11; George W. Knight, <em>The Pastoral Epistles</em> (The New International   Greek Testament Commentary; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992), 179-80; William D.   Mounce, <em>Pastoral Epistles</em> (Word Biblical Commentary vol. 46; Nashville:   Thomas Nelson, 2000), 222.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn17" href="#_ftnref17">[17]</a> This is different to (although   not inconsistent with) the use of a similar word in Ephesians 2:19 which   refers to the heavenly assembly as a family whose Father is God (Knox, ‘Church   and the Denominations’, 46).</p>
<p><a name="_ftn18" href="#_ftnref18">[18]</a> There can also be ‘intermittent’   assemblies. See Robinson, <em>Church</em><em> of </em><em>God</em>, 11-14.</p>
<p><a name="_ftn19" href="#_ftnref19">[19]</a> Ronald E. Vallet, <em>Congregations   at the Crossroads: Remembering to be Households of God</em> (Faith’s   Horizons; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998), goes much too far in making ‘household   of God’ the controlling metaphor of church, but he does usefully explore   some of the impacts that a ‘household of God’ might have on the whole   created order.</div>
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		<title>Women Preaching to Mixed Adult Congregations: A detailed reading of 1 Timothy 2:8-15 in reply to John Stott&#8217;s position</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2005/01/01/women-preaching-to-mixed-adult-congregations/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2005/01/01/women-preaching-to-mixed-adult-congregations/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jan 2005 00:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[1 Timothy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ministry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sexuality]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>The issue of women preaching to mixed adult congregations is one that has caused a lot of consternation in &#8216;evangelical circles&#8217; in recent times. There is a common argument that women should preach to mixed adult congregations that proceeds along the following lines:</p> Different scholars and respected authorities disagree on the interpretation of the relevant [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue of women preaching to mixed adult congregations is one that has caused a lot of consternation in &#8216;evangelical circles&#8217; in recent times. There is a common argument that women <em>should</em> preach to mixed adult congregations that proceeds along the following lines:</p>
<ol>
<li>Different scholars and respected authorities disagree on the     interpretation of the relevant Bible passages (especially 1 Timothy 2:8-15)</li>
<li>Therefore the Bible is unclear on the issue</li>
<li>However, there <em>are</em> a lot of women preaching to mixed adult     congregations. Not many people are bothered by this, the outside world     thinks it&#8217;s a good idea, and we should be egalitarian.</li>
<li>In the absence of any clear biblical mandate, we should go with what     works.</li>
<li>Therefore, women should preach to mixed adult congregations</li>
</ol>
<p>John Stott can be cited as a very well-respected scholar who has added to the different &#8216;interpretations&#8217; of 1 Timothy 2:8-15. I want to argue that, despite the many great things that Stott has contributed to evangelical scholarship and understanding, his explanation of 1 Timothy 2:8-15 is not in line with what the text actually says. I suspect this is true of a lot of &#8216;interpretations&#8217; of this and other passages; and therefore that the Bible is a lot clearer than many people want to make out.</p>
<p>Before I begin, I&#8217;d better state my background. I have experienced much excellent and edifying gospel ministry from women. I became a Christian through a woman Scripture teacher, I am constantly amazed at the godly example and Scriptural insight of both my wife and my mother, and I have worked alongside and learned from many fabulous full-time Christian workers who are women. Their Christian ministry and biblical modelling and encouragement has been a tremendous help to me. Therefore, I don&#8217;t actually see a need for women to preach to mixed adult congregations, because there&#8217;s so much of a need for them to be getting on with other, equally important, gospel ministries, including preaching to women. So what appears to me to be the &#8216;plain meaning&#8217; of 1 Timothy 2:8-15 doesn&#8217;t bother me all that much and I don&#8217;t feel the need to look for alternative interpretations. Please be aware of my background as you read this; and I also urge you to be aware of the background and motivations of any other writer who writes on this (and any other) biblical issue.</p>
<h1>John Stott&#8217;s position on 1 Timothy 2:8-15</h1>
<p>This is a summary of Stott&#8217;s argument in: Stott, John R. W. <em>The Message of 1 Timothy &amp; Titus</em>. The Bible Speaks Today. Leicester: IVP, 1996.</p>
<p>On pages 73-78, Stott argues for the mediating position (between literalism and liberalism) of ‘cultural transposition’. This means that one must distinguish between essential, changeless revelation and changeable, cultural expression. Then one must ‘transpose’ the changeless revelation into our <em>own</em> cultural expression.</p>
<p>On page 78 he states (non-controversially) that both verse 8 and verses 9-10 contain easily distinguishable elements of essential revelation and cultural expression.</p>
<p>Then, on page 79, he states (more controversially!) that we should apply the same principle to verses 11-15:</p>
<ul>
<li>‘Submission’ is unchangeable revelation (cf 1 Cor 11:2ff),
<ul>
<li>expressed in that culture by ‘silence’</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>‘Not exercising authority’ is unchangeable revelation,
<ul>
<li>expressed in that culture by ‘not teaching’</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Page 79: &#8216;Some readers will doubtless respond that there is no indication of this distinction in the text itself. For verses 11 and 12 contain just two prohibitions (teaching and having authority) and two commands (silence and submission). This is true. But the same could be said about verses 8 and 9. There is nothing in the text of verse 8 which requires us to distinguish between the commands to lift up holy hands and to be rid of anger and argument. Nor is there anything in the text of verse 9 which requires us to distinguish between the commands to women to dress modestly and to avoid hair &#8211; plaiting and jewellery. Yet a Christian mind, schooled in the perspectives and presuppositions of the New Testament, knows that its ethical commands and their cultural expressions are not equally normative and must therefore be distinguished.&#8217;</p>
<p>Page 80: &#8216;May not the requirement of silence, like the requirement of veils, have been a first &#8211; century cultural symbol of masculine headship, which is not necessarily appropriate today? For silence is not an essential ingredient of submission; submission is expressed in different ways in different cultures. Similarly women teaching men does not necessarily symbolize taking authority over them.&#8217; Examples of women teaching men, according to Stott, include prophesying (1 Cor 11:5, Acts   2:17  , 21:9) and Priscilla teaching Apollos (Acts   18:26  ).</p>
<p>On pages 80-81 he explains (quite persuasively) that the theological explanation from the creation narrative relates directly to the issue of submission.</p>
<p>On page 81 Stott states the conclusion for our time: &#8216;If then a woman teaches others, including men, under the authority of Scripture (not claiming any authority of her own), in a meek and quiet spirit (not throwing her weight about), and as a member of a pastoral team whose leader is a man (as a contemporary cultural symbol of masculine headship), would it not be legitimate for her to exercise such a ministry, and be commissioned (ordained) to do so, because she would not be infringing the biblical principle of masculine headship?&#8217;</p>
<h1>A criticism of John Stott&#8217;s position</h1>
<p>Stott&#8217;s argument is:</p>
<ol>
<li>We need to distinguish ethical commands and changeable cultural expression</li>
<li>There is no indication in the text how we might make such a distinction</li>
<li>Therefore we have to use common sense and general Bible knowledge to do     this</li>
<li>Then we can work out how to make the ethical commands work in our own     cultural expression</li>
</ol>
<p>I will tackle point 2 first (exegetically, i.e. from the text itself) and then point 3 (theologically, i.e. from general biblical principles)</p>
<h2>Exegesis (from the text)</h2>
<p>I have drawn a <a href="../../bibleresources/bible/new/WomenPreaching.htm#Structure">detailed structure and syntactical diagram of the text</a>, below.</p>
<p>From this analysis, there <em>are</em> very good reasons in verses 8 and verses 9-10 to distinguish between changeless commands and particular cultural expressions. Namely,</p>
<ul>
<li>the commands themselves are infinitival objects of the main verb: &#8216;I wish     … men to pray … women to adorn.&#8217;,</li>
<li>while the &#8216;cultural expressions&#8217; are dependent participial or     prepositional phrases that follow the command: &#8216;raising devout hands&#8217;,     &#8216;without anger or disputing&#8217; (which appears to have been a particular     problem for that time, as it is in our time!), &#8216;not by braided hair …&#8217;.</li>
<li>Those expressions which Paul sees as transcending culture are either     placed before the command for emphasis (e.g. &#8216;in appropriate apparel&#8217;) or     preceded by a universalising statement (&#8216;as is fitting for women who profess     piety, through good works&#8217;).</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>None of these arguments applies to verses 11-12</strong>! The infinitives (which in verses 8-10 were top-level commands) are</p>
<ul>
<li>&#8216;to teach&#8217; (prohibited), and</li>
<li>&#8216;to give orders to&#8217; (prohibited) &#8211; i.e. exercise authority in the context     of word-based teaching,</li>
<li>&#8216;to be in quietness&#8217;.</li>
</ul>
<h2>Theology (from general biblical principles)</h2>
<ul>
<li>Stott claims that &#8216;silence&#8217; and &#8216;not teaching&#8217; was simply a cultural     expression of man-woman order just like the wearing of a veil in 1     Corinthians 11.
<ul>
<li>Yet theologically, those who believe in Sola Scriptura (including         Stott himself, in his book <em>I Believe in Preaching</em>) believe that         teaching is more than a cultural symbol; it is an activity right at the         heart of Christian fellowship; a proper extension of the authority of         the God who speaks and brings creation into being, the God who speaks         and brings the dead to life in salvation.</li>
<li>Teaching God&#8217;s word implicitly carries authority with it.</li>
<li>This is strengthened by the Old Testament context of verses 12-15         (Genesis 3). The issue is God&#8217;s word and teaching; the woman is         &#8216;deceived&#8217; into doubting, distorting and contradicting God&#8217;s word.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>Clearly, there are ways of speaking and edifying others in a     non-authoritative way.
<ul>
<li>Prophesying is an activity that involves the whole congregation         weighing what is said (1 Corinthians 11-14).</li>
<li>Priscilla privately exegeted the gospel (Acts 18:26), the word &#8216;teach&#8217;         is not used, and it was not public.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>But this is not &#8216;teaching&#8217;, and it is never called such.</li>
</ul>
<h2>How should we apply this passage?</h2>
<p>Women are not to teach adult males, in the sense of preaching the word of God and exhorting the congregation. This is not a cultural expression of biblical reality, it <em>is</em> biblical reality.</p>
<p>&#8216;Teaching&#8217; does not become something else when a cultural &#8216;symbol&#8217;, like a male congregational leadership structure, is added. Such symbols, rather, are more appropriate when other speaking activities are taking place in the congregation (1 Corinthians 11), such as sharing wise observations about life, reporting aspects of congregational life, etc. It is highly questionable whether a male congregational leadership structure is a &#8216;symbol&#8217; like a veil anyway, since it is not visible at the time when teaching is taking place.</p>
<hr />
<h1>Detailed structure of the text</h1>
<p>This is based on the basic syntactical structure of the Greek clauses and phrases.</p>
<h2>Overview</h2>
<ul>
<li>8-10 Paul’s 2 wishes
<ul>
<li>8 For men: pray (in a certain manner)</li>
<li>9-10 For women: adorn (in a certain manner)</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>11 A command for women
<ul>
<li>Learn (in a certain manner)</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>12 Paul’s 2 prohibitions (+ alternative) for women
<ul>
<li>To teach</li>
<li>To give orders to a man</li>
<li>(Alternative: to be in quietness)</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>13-15 Explanation: from creation and salvation.</li>
</ul>
<h2>Details</h2>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="top"><strong>Syntax-based </strong><strong>English</strong><strong> translation</strong><strong> </strong></th>
<th valign="top"><strong>Grammar       and </strong><strong>Comment </strong></th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">So I <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">wish</span></strong></td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Top</span></strong> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">-</span></strong> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">level indicative: Paul’s desire </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">[for] the men in every place <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">to </span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">pray</span></strong></td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Paul’s Desire #1:       infinitive </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">raising</span> devout hands</td>
<td valign="top">Manner of prayer #1: participle</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">without       anger or disputing</td>
<td valign="top">Manner of prayer #2: prepositional phrase</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">Likewise</td>
<td valign="top"><strong> </strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">[for]       women</td>
<td valign="top"><strong> </strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">in       appropriate apparel</td>
<td valign="top">Content of adornment: prepositional phrase</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">with       modesty and good judgment</td>
<td valign="top">Manner of adornment: prepositional phrase</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">to </span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">adorn</span></strong> themselves</td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Paul’s Desire #2:       infinitive </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">not</td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">by       braided hair and gold or pearls or costly clothes</td>
<td valign="top">Prohibited means of adornment: prepositional phrase<strong> </strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">but</td>
<td valign="top"><strong> </strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 90px;" valign="top">(as       is fitting for women who profess piety)</td>
<td valign="top">(Explanatory comment: relative clause)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 60px;" valign="top">through       good works</td>
<td valign="top">Commanded means of adornment: prepositional phrase</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top"></td>
<td valign="top"><strong> </strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">[As for] a woman,</td>
<td valign="top"><strong> </strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">in       quietness</td>
<td valign="top">Manner of learning #1: prepositional phrase</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Let her <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">learn</span></strong></td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Top</span></strong> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">-</span></strong> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">level imperative: command </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">in       all subordination</td>
<td valign="top">Manner of learning #2: prepositional phrase</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top"></td>
<td valign="top"><strong> </strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">But       <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">to </span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">teach</span></strong></td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Prohibition #1: infinitive </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">a       woman</td>
<td valign="top">(object in dative)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">I do not <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">permit</span></strong></td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Top level indicative: prohibition </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">Nor</td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">to </span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">give orders to</span></strong> a       man</td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Prohibition #2: infinitive </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">But</td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">[rather] <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">to </span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">be</span></strong> in quietness</td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Alternative to prohibition:       infinitive </span></strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top"></td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">For Adam was first <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">formed</span></strong>,       then Eve</td>
<td valign="top"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Explanation</span></strong>:       a series of indicatives</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">and</td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Adam was not <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">deceived</span></strong></td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">but the woman <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">became</span></strong> deceived in transgression</td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">But she <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">will       be saved</span></strong> through [the] childbearing,</td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding-left: 30px;" valign="top">If they remain in faith and love       and holiness with good judgment.</td>
<td valign="top"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
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		<title>The Bible alone: what does that mean in practice?</title>
		<link>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2001/12/01/the-bible-alone/</link>
		<comments>http://www.lionelwindsor.net/2001/12/01/the-bible-alone/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2001 16:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lionel</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Epistemology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Revelation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lionelwindsor.net/?p=661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>This is an imaginary dialogue between a Roman Catholic and an Evangelical written to help Christians better understand the Reformation principle of &#8220;Scripture Alone&#8221;.</p> <p>&#8220;Let my cry come before you, O LORD; give me understanding according to your word.&#8221; (Ps 119:169)</p> <p>(Nigel&#8217;s words are from an anonymous pamphlet written and distributed by a Roman Catholic [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an imaginary dialogue between a Roman Catholic and an Evangelical written to help Christians better understand the Reformation principle of &#8220;Scripture Alone&#8221;.</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Let my cry come before you, O LORD; give me understanding according to your word.&#8221;</em><em><strong> </strong></em><em>(Ps 119:169)</em></p>
<p>(Nigel&#8217;s words are from an anonymous pamphlet written and distributed by a Roman Catholic university group.)</p>
<hr /><em>Nigel, a Roman Catholic student, and his evangelical friend, Gus, are talking on their way to class …</em></p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>Hey, you&#8217;ve got something on your forehead there…</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>Those are ashes. Today we Catholics go to Mass and receive ashes. It gets us in the mood for Lent, so we remember our need for God&#8217;s forgiveness.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>That&#8217;s something I can never understand about Catholicism. You seem to invent your own ceremonies and rituals. Take Mass—where is that in the Bible?</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>Well, I don&#8217;t think the word &#8220;Mass&#8221; is in the Bible, but the reality of the Mass is there: Christ himself celebrated the first Mass at the Last Supper. But there&#8217;s a lot of Christian beliefs that are not found literally in the Bible: for example, we both believe in the Trinity, but where is that term &#8220;Trinity&#8221; found in the Bible?</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>What I mean is, what we believe and do as Christians should be in line with the Bible and its teachings.</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>But does it have to be in the Bible? Is there anywhere in the Bible that says that?</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>The Bible says, &#8220;If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed&#8221;<strong> </strong>(Gal 1:9)!</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>Of course, St Paul says, &#8220;If anyone is preaching a gospel…&#8221;; he makes no mention of any Bible, nor even of anything written. When he says &#8220;gospel&#8221; he&#8217;s not talking about the written gospel. The word &#8220;gospel&#8221; means &#8220;good news&#8221;—that is, the message that the apostles received from Christ and which they passed on by word of mouth, in preaching and ordinary conversation.</p>
<p>Anyway, John 21:25 tells us there are &#8220;many other things that Jesus did&#8221; which were not recorded in the Gospel, and have been handed down to us by word of mouth by the apostles. These oral teachings of the apostles are just as truly the word of God as their written works which we find in the Bible.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>Hold on, I know that passage from the gospel of John. John didn&#8217;t say &#8220;Jesus did lots of things, and I&#8217;ve decided to write a few down now and hand a few others down by word of mouth, but whether I&#8217;ve written it or not doesn&#8217;t matter&#8221;. No, in John 20:31 John tells us that he deliberately wrote certain things down about Jesus in order that we might believe and have life. So, he saw written Scripture as vitally important for matters of faith and conduct. All the important stuff about Jesus got written down. Anyway, what were you going to say about these oral teachings?</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>These teachings have been handed on, from generation to generation, through the popes and bishops of the Catholic Church. Catholics believe that Tradition dating from Christ or his apostles, and the Bible, are equally important as sources of divine truth. We must draw upon both of them for a full knowledge of Christ and his teachings. In fact, many parts of the Bible would be difficult to understand correctly if we did not have Tradition to guide us in interpreting them.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>That doesn&#8217;t make sense. You said that the Bible and Tradition are both equally important. But then you said that Tradition must be used to guide and interpret many parts of the Bible. That means that, when push comes to shove, you&#8217;ll rely upon Tradition before you rely on the Bible.</p>
<p>No, the Bible must be used to guide and interpret Tradition! That&#8217;s what I believe—that the Bible must be used to evaluate, interpret, guide and change our beliefs if necessary. That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s so important to read and understand it for ourselves.</p>
<p>Anyway, how do you know that what is called &#8220;Tradition&#8221; today has been transmitted accurately by word of mouth? It&#8217;s 2000 years, 80 generations, and there&#8217;s a lot of room there for error. If I got together a long line of 80 people, whispered a lifetime&#8217;s worth of information to the first person, got him to whisper it to the second, etc, down the line, do you think the eightieth person would have an accurate version of what I said? It&#8217;s pretty unlikely. With the Bible, on the other hand, it&#8217;s quite different. We can go directly to the source!</p>
<p>The Bible is true Tradition. How do you know whether what is called &#8220;Tradition&#8221; today is not simply human traditions which are not those of Christ? You&#8217;ve got to read the Bible, and then evaluate what you and your church does in light of Bible. That&#8217;s what we should all do, because the Bible is the word of God.</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>But how do you know it&#8217;s the word of God?</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>Wait a minute—you&#8217;re Catholic and you&#8217;re saying that you don&#8217;t believe the Bible&#8217;s the inspired word of God?</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>No, I&#8217;m not saying that. The Catholic Church certainly believes the Bible is the inspired word of God. I&#8217;m simply asking you why you believe it to be inspired.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>Well, first of all you can tell by reading it for yourself.</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>What about the Koran? It too has some beautiful, &#8220;inspirational&#8221; passages. Would you say that the Koran is the word of God? Also, some of the revelations that the Mormons maintain were made to Joseph Smith seem quite spiritual. Would you say that they are inspired?</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>No, when I say &#8220;inspired&#8221; I don&#8217;t mean &#8220;inspirational&#8221; or &#8220;spiritual&#8221;. I mean that the Bible is &#8220;God-breathed&#8221;—it comes from God, it tells us about God and what he&#8217;s like. I&#8217;m convinced because the Bible tells me about an awesome, powerful yet loving God who sent his Son to die to take the punishment for our sins.</p>
<p>Why do you believe that the Bible is inspired?</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>I believe the Bible&#8217;s inspired because the Catholic Church said so.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>When was that?</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>Way back in the fourth century. You see, at that time a number of different gospels began to circulate, such as the gospel of St Thomas, the gospel of Nicodemus and others. A few of them were written to mislead, but others were written by pious people with good intentions. As it was easy for people to confuse these new &#8220;gospels&#8221; with the real gospel, there arose the need to distinguish them from each other. The Catholic Church studied the matter and in the Council of Hippo (393) and two Councils of Carthage (397 &amp; 419) determined and approved the canon or official list of inspired books of the Bible as we have it today.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>Hang on there a minute! I&#8217;m impressed by your knowledge of history, but you&#8217;re drawing a few conclusions that are not warranted.</p>
<p>You said that the Councils of the Church &#8220;determined and approved&#8221; the canon. There&#8217;s a big difference between &#8220;determining&#8221; and &#8220;approving&#8221;. If the Councils &#8220;determined&#8221; the canon, it means they made arbitrary decisions about which books were in and which were out based on their own authority. If the Councils &#8220;approved&#8221; the canon, it means that they carefully investigated what had already been accepted as Scripture for four centuries, then formalised and published the approved list based on their research.</p>
<p>We can work out whether the canon was &#8220;determined&#8221; or simply &#8220;approved&#8221; by asking a simple question. Were the books of the Bible accepted as &#8220;inspired&#8221; Scripture <em>before</em> the councils, or did they suddenly become &#8220;Scripture&#8221; when the Councils made their pronouncement?</p>
<p>If you read the Bible, you&#8217;ll see that the books of the New Testament were accepted as Scripture right from the start, even by those who wrote them. In 2 Peter 3:16, Peter calls the letters of Paul &#8220;Scripture&#8221;. In 1 Timothy 5:18, Paul quotes Luke&#8217;s gospel alongside the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy and calls both of them &#8220;Scripture&#8221;. The books of the Bible were self-consciously the Word of God right from the start. So, all the Councils did was approve and publish the list of books that had been accepted as Scripture for four centuries, so that people wouldn&#8217;t get confused about the other books.</p>
<p>What point are you trying to make by saying this, anyway?</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>My point is that if you don&#8217;t believe in the Catholic Church, you have no solid reason to believe in the Bible because we know the Bible to be inspired only because the Catholic Church has said so.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>But that&#8217;s not true. The writers of the Bible knew it to be inspired because God said so. The early readers of the Bible knew it to be inspired because they read it and realised that it was. Similarly, the Councils of the fourth century knew it to be inspired because they read it and realised that it was. And you and I can know that the Bible is inspired because we can read it and realise that it is.</p>
<p>You shouldn&#8217;t believe that the Bible is inspired simply because the Catholic Church says so. You should read it for yourself and realise that it is inspired, and then rejoice that the fourth century councils came to the same conclusion. When I read the Bible, God&#8217;s Holy Spirit guides me to understand its meaning.</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>But what you just said goes against Scripture. St. Peter, referring to the letters of St. Paul, warns about the dangers of relying on private judgment alone in interpreting Scripture: &#8220;There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction&#8221; (2 Peter 3:16)</p>
<p>Besides, if what you say is true, how is it that the Holy Spirit does not lead all Bible readers to understand the same passages in the same way? You know as well as I do that honest people have come up with different interpretations of particular passages.</p>
<p><strong>Gus: </strong>I think you&#8217;ve misunderstood me. I don&#8217;t mean that there&#8217;s some sort of magical process whereby you as an individual merely need to glance at the words on the page of the Bible and then suddenly everything will become crystal clear because of the Holy Spirit. You&#8217;ve got to work hard at understanding the Bible. You&#8217;ve got to put in the effort to do the comprehension: read it, work out the meaning, look at the context, think about it, re-read it. Anyone can do that—but you&#8217;ve got to work at it.</p>
<p>And like you said, Peter wisely pointed out that there are reasons why we don&#8217;t understand the Bible. The main reason is that we aren&#8217;t &#8220;honest people&#8221;, we are sinful. For example, we are &#8220;ignorant&#8221;—we don&#8217;t put in the effort. Instead, in our laziness, we sit back and are content to let other people tell us what the Bible says or let our own prejudices and ideas dictate what the Bible says. I know I&#8217;ve been guilty of that at times, and I&#8217;m sure you have too.</p>
<p>And our sinfulness makes us &#8220;unstable&#8221;. We read the Bible in order to make it fit our own ideas and make us comfortable in our own sinful lives rather that let it challenge our thinking and our actions.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s the solution to being &#8220;ignorant&#8221; and &#8220;unstable&#8221;? Relying on the Catholic Church isn’t the solution. No the solution is simple—the Holy Spirit needs to change you to make you &#8220;informed&#8221; and &#8220;stable&#8221;. You need to read the Bible yourself and put in the hard work. You need to ask God to work in you by his Holy Spirit to make you understand and to stop you being blinded by your own sinfulness. God will answer that prayer—and he will often graciously provide other Christians to help.</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t you and I read a few Bible books together and then we can compare what we come up with to what the different churches and interpreters think? That may make the issues a bit more concrete.</p>
<p><strong>Nigel: </strong>Okay, mate, let&#8217;s do it.</p>
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